The other day, I started my morning run in a foul mood from some news I had recently received. About a mile into my workout, I see a hipster dude in Buddy Holly glasses and skinny jeans walking his dog about a half block ahead of me. The hipster is yapping away on his iphone and doesn’t seem to be paying attention when his dog shits on the well-tended lawn of a house they are passing.
I don’t think much of this until I see what the hipster does next. He looks down, sees the big pile of shit his dog has just ejected, turns back to his phone and starts to walk off. No effort to pick up the shit, no sign of guilt or even an effort to hide his crime—it’s obvious this is a typical morning routine with this dude and he’s obviously gotten away with it so far.
Well, not this morning. Not on my watch.
So I run up to hipster dude. “Hey, man, your dog just defecated on that lawn, you need to clean it up,” I say to him.
The hipster juts his finger out in front of my face. His phone conversation is clearly more important than anything I have to say. If I was feeling grumpy before, I’m starting to grow enraged now. All bets are off.
“If you don’t put that fucking phone down, I’m going to shove it down your fucking throat,” I say.
This gets his attention. He puts the phone down.
“Now, go pick up your dog’s shit.”
“Uh, I don’t have anything to pick it up with.”
“That’s not my problem. Pick up the fucking shit.”
“Listen, man, I live a couple of blocks from here. I’ll get a plastic bag and come back in a few—“
“Pick up the your dog’s fucking shit now.”
“Look, I told you, I can’t—“
“Use your hands.”
“What?”
“Use your hands and pick up the shit.”
“Are you fucking insane?”
“Yeah, I am. And if you don’t pick up the shit now, I’m gonna grab you by the neck and shove your face into it and make you eat it. So shut the fuck up and pick it up, asshole!”
The truth is I’m no tough guy, but I try to act as scary and imposing as I can. The hipster doesn’t say anything for a few seconds. I think he might try to hit me so I mentally prepare to respond to that (to be honest, the guy didn’t look that tough and I probably wouldn’t have confronted him if he did). But instead, he kneels down and actually picks up his dog’s shit with his hands. I don’t say anything as I turn and take off down the street.
If I hadn’t been in such a pissy mood, I probably would’ve just called the guy a dick or something and left it at that. Did I overact to the situation? Maybe. I will say I feel bad. But not for making this guy pick up his dog’s shit with his hands. No, I feel bad ‘cause honestly, I really enjoyed making him do it. And if you think that makes me a terrible person, then so be it.
But that is the question, isn’t it? Is it wrong to take pleasure from doing bad things to bad people?
This wasn’t even a question when I was younger. Back then, I was a hothead and had a lot of what I call “Asian American male” anger. Occasionally, I overreacted like the one time during a college dorm party when this drunk hick kept calling me a “nip” and tried to start a fight so I threw him off the second floor balcony (he landed in the soft mulch below and survived with only a fractured ego).
But for the most part, I had no doubt that the bad things I did were completely justified.
Another time in college, a female friend of mine was date raped by another student whom everyone looked up to as a leader and pillar of the campus community. She was ashamed and traumatized and refused to report the crime to the authorities. It soon came out that this “upstanding” guy had a history of doing the same thing to other women and his other victims were also too scared or ashamed to publicly come forward. I, and others, tried to talk my friend into pressing charges, but she refused. I couldn’t imagine what she was feeling or going through and had to respect and honor her wishes.
But I wasn’t going to let that bastard get away with it.
So…I did something bad to him. I wanted him to feel the same sense of violation his victims did. What I did to him wasn’t technically illegal (though I’m sure if the guy had reported me, I would’ve been kicked out of school), but it was bad. Really bad. And I have to say I felt zero remorse. In fact, the following Monday, I saw the guy in a class we had together. I sat in one corner of the classroom, he in the other. At one point, he sheepishly looked over and I smiled. A minute later, he had a breakdown and had to leave the class. At that moment, not only did I not feel remorse, I felt what I can only describe as giddy satisfaction. And as far as I know, the guy never touched another girl again at least while I was in school.
That wasn’t the first or last time I did something bad to someone bad. People have asked me if I felt sorry or ever worried about karma coming back to bite me in the ass. My answer was always no. For all I know, what I did to these people could’ve been their karma for the horrible things they did. I’ve never regretted any of it until….well, the dog shit incident, which frankly isn’t even on the top ten of bad things I’ve done to bad people.
Morality is definitely a fluid and changing thing. A few years ago, I had a spirited debate with my friend Bob about when it might be justified to kill another man. For Bob, the issue was black and white—no matter what the man may have done, taking his life was wrong under any circumstance. However, I talked to Bob a few weeks ago and he said he could easily see himself murdering someone if he had to. Why the change of heart? He now has a one-year-old daughter. His exact words to me were, “If anyone ever did something to her, I would not hesitate in making that person pay.”
Perhaps as I grow older, I’m experiencing a moral shift too. Don’t get me wrong—I still share a similar sentiment as Bob does…if someone hurt any of the people I care about and they were going to suffer no punishment for it, I wouldn’t hesitate to personally making that person pay. But the difference is that now, I probably wouldn’t enjoy it as much. I suppose with age also comes the growing realization that your soul isn’t as bulletproof as you once thought it was.
OMG, Phil! I can’t believe you did that! That poor man. Wow, who know you had such balls! I appreciate this. Kinda hot. But, wow, I really can’t believe that man actually picked up the crap with his bare hands! EWWWW! Skeeeevees! I would have told you to “shove it, ain’t no way!” LOLOL. Serious. But he should have come with a bag to pick it up. That’s what he gets!
I do understand your moral dilemma though. And I appreciate that you are conflicted about it, means you have a heart, and a conscience. Sometimes I don’t feel bad when bad things happen to bad people. Sometimes I do. I usually don’t take it upon myself to do those things to bad people though, but if somehow God uses me to do it, than I just believe that it is as it should be. And if I’ve done wrong I ask for forgiveness to cover the basis.
Whoa whoa whoa. Dude thats just not right. Even on the smallest level, what you say or do effects all of us as Asian Americans. So don’t go around writing that you did something bad and not tell us what you did. Thats just bad etiquette. So what did you do to that rapist in college?
I can understand your actions. At times I do have these feelings as well, from the dogs defecating on pavements, littering and general boorishness.
You are a better neighbour than most people.
I have not had to take action unless it affected me directly, but the date rape scenario would have had me reaching for a cricket bat.
I had this kind of day–sometimes. Waking up with a foul mood makes one brave or even tactless. But hey, your actions were justified. You just can’t let that guy getaway WITHOUT his dog’s shit. Hehe and it’s ok to feel good about it, he was after a dick. Maybe he wouldn’t have hesitated if you suggested to shove his iPhone in the shit instead of his head, haha!
I think everyone has felt like revenge ever, some with more intensity and others less, others carried out and others just think it. It´s a clash between feelings and rationality, it´s normal that there is a debate within you, because it means you think about your actions and you are consistent. The other day I saw a documentary about the instinct murderer and said that all we can to a greater or lesser degree of murder.
What I think is this: if I can get back at people who have hurt me, if I can make them feel as bad as they did me, then I’m behaving like them, I’m the same.
Sorry my english isn´t very good
Some people just need to get their ass kicked, and to hell with the “model minority” mindfuck. Someone has to fight back, or we’ll continue to perpetuate an even worse stereotype: the meek Asian who will bow and turn the other cheek while another (usually white) man beats him or otherwise takes advantage.
With that said, take it from a combat veteran, you don’t enjoy the taking of another life, no matter how justified. Example: enemy shot me, then I returned fire but I was a better shot; turns out my shooter wasn’t even 13. This isn’t to say that some people don’t deserve to die; they most certainly do, and many including me wouldn’t even blink when we dropped that person. But unless you’re a total sociopath, you just don’t feel joy at killing. If anything, grim satisfaction came from either knowing you saved another soldier’s life, or that this was one less fighter with a rifle who could endanger you or your friends.
Beatings? Sure, I’ve suffered and administered more than my share over the years, and some continue to be sources of pride for me. This is also why I don’t do shots of tequila anymore. Does taking a stand take a toll? Yes and no. Yes, because it’s frustrating to see so many Asians get along to go along, especially when they’ve been mistreated. No, because karma is a bitch, and it just flat out feels good to mete out karmic punishment.
Sorry, that’s my two cents. Rangers lead the way!
Dan
What a fascinating read – thanks.
You’d think that the expression of anger transcends race? Or maybe the bravado with which you express yourself so spectacularly is an expression of identity?
Anyhow – glad it was a win, and that we didn’t hear about how you got your ass beat.
I do think there’s Karmic retribution which usually comes in the form of that fleeting, yet nagging sense of guilt for having treated another person so badly.
Justice requires confrontation – good job man.
speaking of angry Koreans and anger and revenge:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1588170/
These types of confrontations have to be judged from two angles: the moral and the pragmatic. For example, last summer, I got into a fight with a racist at a McDonald’s in Vancouver (this is a not nearly as a nice a city as everyone thinks, btw). It was about 11:30 pm, I had just flown in from Asia, was only in town for a one-night layover, and had just been to a Star Trek convention event that was at the hotel I was staying (not really relevant, just amusing).
I get into line, and this piece of white trash in front of me is saying insult and after insult against the Filipino workers behind the counter. If it was just one comment, I’d've let it go, but it was a continuous stream of racist invective: how slow he felt they were, how they talked, the fact they worked at McDonald’s, etc. Everyone could hear him, one of the workers told him to watch his mouth, but he just kept going.
Basically, I snapped, slammed him into the wall, and shouted “That’s enough!” He came back at me and punched me a couple times, I socked him in the jaw, and the fight was broken up. Security came, I was polite as hell, and they said I was in the right since the other guy was clearly an asshole.
Was I morally in the right? Absolutely. Every person I’ve spoken to, male/female, white/minority, young/old agrees (except for one fellow, a rich hippie, who is no longer my friend for unrelated reasons). Even if, say, this guy had a rough childhood, poor life prospects, and generally got the short end of the stick, he was being an asshole and got what was coming to him. But did I do the pragmatically correct thing? No, it was stupid: I risked serious injury, I could’ve been arrested, and I jeopardized my career.
Ultimately, injustice has to be confronted, but it has to be met with, as the Buddhists say, “skillful means.” You probably could’ve been more diplomatic with the dog-walker, and he didn’t necessarily deserve that, but hey, it’s not like you put a gun to his head and forced him to pick up the crap.
Finally, I, too, need to know what you did to the rapist.
Oh, and one more thought: most people misunderstand the concept of karma. It is not moral comeuppance: it is related to the idea of “interdependent arising,” that is, the causal relationship between phenomena. Karma describes cause-and-effect: it says that every action has consequences in the world (and in one’s own bodymind), and that this process must be respected and understood, because everything is linked.
To ascribe particular moral content to karma reduces it to a conventional religious social control concept: good people are rewarded, bad guys get what’s coming to them. Anyone who has lived a while knows that the world seldom works this way; this is why, in my opinion, reincarnation (as well as Heaven and Hell) were created for mass consumption.
Finally, Phil, as you say, morality is slippery: it changes with time, place, social context, level of maturity, etc. What is absolutely good now may not be considered good down the road. What is good for me may be very bad for you. Understanding this, how could a karmic moral system possibly exist?
Ultimately, morality has to be context-appropriate. If you try to apply liberal secular values, for example, to a pre-industrial tribal society, you will most likely get yourself and your tribe killed for your human rights and pluralistic views. If you apply tribal values to a democratic republic, you’ll spend your life in jail for theft, kidnapping, rape, and murder. Both are “good” for the situation they developed in, both are “bad” in other contexts.
The situations we’ve been discussing all involve violations of established moral rules, violations which will likely go unpoliced and unpunished. As a result, we feel a strong urge to violate back. Our society says this is not good, because society can’t have independent justice-givers and still hold together; so when stuff like this happens, we have to weigh the morality of getting revenge/justice vs., frankly, the probability of getting caught and potentially having your life derailed over something that may not be worth it in the long run.
Karma asks us to fully appreciate the consequences of how an action affects us inside and the world outside. It does not bend the world to an absolute moral order.
Seal Team 6 needs you. Now.
This is awesome. I wish you lived in my part of town.
You’re like Dexter!
Street justice……I love it, Phil!
You sound like a complete hothead asshole.
I’m a dog owner whose puppy likely got a disease from dog shit that other people don’t pick up. (I’m taking him to the vet tomorrow.) The dog shit story made my day. XD
Justice and revenge are best served cold, in-between and hot.
Very lib pal of mine told me (as we spoke of various crimes against children that were in news) “Hurt my son and I’m coming after you.” Fire in his eyes.
LA was a very clean city. For instance the Virgil District at Melrose was graffitti/tag-free, no sofas or paste-board furniture left on curbs. A mess now. I am glad many dog peeps are picking up feces in parks and around city. Glad also hipster got the confront and shit on his ridiculous hands.
Tags on freeway overpasses everywhere — sorry, hometown has gone to the dogs. Angry about it? You bet. Would paint extreme slippery silicone solution on overpasses, hoping taggers would fall to their stupid deaths if they let me. D-fens here.
You should see (or shouldn’t) how our local forest canyon are degraded and defaced — trash, Pampers and graffitti and tags painted on canyon walls, railings, even on trees. Everywhere. Sick and stupid. If you don’t want to believe me I’ll send you a hundred shots I’ve taken to break your heart. Witnessed families drop all their trash and just walk away. Great lesson for kids.
Can’t be rationalized, explained, detailed and deflected away, some peeps need the stick upside the head. Or a mad Korean in face.
[...] THE MORALITY OF DOING BAD THINGS TO BAD PEOPLE: [...]
[...] Offender Phil’s recent meditation on forcing bad people to pick up dog shit bare handed prompted me to think of some of the gut [...]
I took tremendous pleasure in reading this. Bless you and your good works, sir.
LOl your a fucking liar and pussy. You did t dO that u fucking pussy. Kill yourself, quick before u fuck up everything