“For a group of people that are supposed to be good at math, you guys must be retarded to keep making Asian American films.”
That is a direct quote from a conversation I had with a veteran film producer last week about one of my upcoming projects. But before you make any judgment, you need to know that he is Asian American.
Such remarks are not uncommon from a lot of Asian Americans working in the industry. In fact they tend to be some of the loudest naysayers and, at times, biggest obstacles on anything ‘Asian American’ (I will get to that on another day). That being said, I do understand his point. He was referring to Asian American cinema as a business. “Screw business!” you might say, but the reality is that filmmaking is a collision between art and commerce (even the cheapest of films will cost more than your average Mercedes). And within the context of Asian American films, the big elephant in the room has always been its business viability. “It’s a young man’s game,” a filmmaker once told me about Asian American films, “it’s fun to talk about representin’ and stuff until you get a mortgage.” And as a business it definitely makes no sense.
Here are the facts: there’s no defined audience and the numbers just are not there. Also, very rarely do Asian American films get picked up for traditional distribution (pipeline including theatrical, home video, VOD, cable, etc.) which is still the standard of measure for any film. And because of that, there hasn’t been enough Asian American films deemed profitable to establish a pattern for a business plan. Whether we like it or not, a thriving business will inevitably be connected to any thriving cinema.
To be fair, the truth is that almost all independent films lose money for its investors, not just Asian American ones. Of course it’s great whenever we read heartwarming Cinderella stories about unknown filmmakers making it big, but we never hear about the thousands who didn’t.
Look, I’m an expert on losing money making Asian American films (seriously, don’t try this at home, kids). I’ve lost as much money as Charles Barkley has gambling in Vegas and the funny thing is, he actually had a better chance of winning. I’m not sharing this as an attempt to garner sympathy but for context. I’m a big boy and knew enough of the risks when I decided to make the films.
So why make Asian American films then? Am I doing it for the ‘cause’? I’d like to say yes, but then I’d be lying (and yes, I will be exploring the idea of the ‘cause’ in detail at a later date).
At the end of the day, it’s just a personal choice. When I was starting out and no one believed in me and I had to apply for ten credit cards to fund my own movie, it became crystal clear what film I wanted to make, the characters I wanted to see, and themes and subjects I wanted to tackle. And since then I continue to have stories, some with Asian American characters, issues and themes I want to explore. And in order for me to do so I have to approach it on an independent level. Is it good business? No. Am I ‘retarded’? I’m not sure. I do know one thing though, I don’t need to go to Vegas to lose money, I’m just going to keep making Asian American films.
Disclaimer: this is just my opinion as a filmmaker of independent films so even though I’ve lost money, it’s nothing compared to the people who truly fund films. At a later date I will present another extremely valuable point of view: that of a producer/financier (damn, there’s a lot of I.O.U.’s in the blog!).
J, courageous thoughts/post, hat’s off.
in spite of my prev and dyspeptic pov on AA films, I salute in your direction. I direct too, but on stage. as we know, the bucks are smaller, if there at all, stakes lower, money stakes that is, more artistic control possible, kee-ripes, I give notes that get listened to, and in some instances the audience is identifiable, ready to attend and we hope loyal.
I’ve seen that art takes courage, have had to find my own. And that art takes bucks. Toss in selfishness, focus and independence. also clear to me is that many AA peeps went into a creative life because they could: stable, comfortable backgrounds. Music lessons, film school, folks that allow a theatre degree versus the SC Dental School. Trust funds, loans, inheritances, cars from aunts, free room and board, etc. That’s cool. It’s eyeopening to find out about some background stories, Robert Downey Jr., others. Some are born into it. The poor kids I knew in school in LA did not go into any of the forms of art. Cops, teachers, secretaries, etc.
I can’t say film is always art. It is sometimes, of course; but perhaps it’s Norman Rockwellian. art critics separated his posters from art. He’s been called an illustrator. I think that’s arguable.
Film is successful when it makes profits. Or you are showing it to friends and family. Depressing definition. That producer’s.
For us — are we like the Latino audience? — multi-culti, multi-lingual, foreign and domestic-born and therefore too polygot for (big) success? Maybe.
Should an AA filmmaker be discouraged? No, keep on. Tell our stories. I don’t think anyone needs to voice the bucket of cold water quotes, every AA filmmaker I’ve met already knows them by heart. Keep on, no one else will.
[...] Asian American movies like Better Luck Tomorrow and Finishing the Game: “Here are the facts: there’s no defined audience and the numbers just are not there. Also, very rarely do Asian American films get picked up for traditional distribution … which [...]
Not retarded. And cinema is more than just art or making money. It’s all about storytelling. All stories deserve to be told, and you have the ability (from talent to connections) to tell them. So like the above guy said, keep on.
making Asian American film is more fun than Vegas
cause burning big money takes longer when you’re making a movie. longer burn = longer fun
Roger, right on!
Never go full “retard”
Nicely put. The one thing I find very sad in your post is that the seasoned Asian American producer refers to fellow Asian Americans as “you people.” Isn’t he one of “you people?”
what i find ridiculous is when asian american film festivals disqualify films with no asian american themes or characters, yet directed by an asian american… i’m all for “representin” but my primary interest and concern is good art. so when i see “representin” get treated like its more important than good art, THATS when i turn angry asian man.
Well, I wrote a column about you, Justin, at the Daily Bruin when Better Luck Tomorrow came out, and that lead directly to my first job in the film industry, because, believe it or not, a producer read it. Truthfully, you taking a risk on unprofitable AA movies has probably far greater impact than you could realize. (Far East Movement, anyone?) Keep on!
As a student filmmaker, I take what you say to heart. Although I am not of Asian descent, I would like to explore stories of all people, from different walks of life, etc, etc. It is unfortunate that the producer said that to you, but I am sure there are plenty of there stories like that. Maybe to get Asian American film out to a larger audience Tyler Perry should be used as an example to follow. What he did for Black american film has revolutionized the industry in a way. Although my experience as a black female is in no way related to any of the stories he tells, my experience is only 1 of millions out there. Talking to a friend of mine today about a script i wanted him to help me on, I told him i wanted to write about a family of color, but the story would not focus on what it is like to be them. He followed that by saying as much as you may want to avoid that (B/c hey white filmmakers do that all the time), there are just some things you cannot forget and for the sake of authenticity you need to take into account the history of that group in the US. Maybe that is the “issue” with Asian American film, people who aren’t Asian don’t want to see it because they can’t relate. That’s their own problem. They are missing out on some pretty good film by thinking that.
Slightly off topic… but what’s with the Oregon O as the default graphic? I have very vivid memories of you saying to me, “Wow. That’s really a great O.”
I’m an occasional lurker on this site, but felt I had to comment on this post.
Better Luck Tommorrow was one of my fav films growing up, I thought it was a very cool movie. Me and my friends all loved it. I rented it out for my younger cousin recently, and she also thought it was great(John Cho was her favourite character)
BLT is one of the reasons that contributed me studying Communications at University, and that film has definately impacted my perspective on life.
Films can change lives, in far away places from where they are made. In Australia, many Asian Australians have watched BLT and it has had an impact on young peoples perceptions here. Theres a young Award winning Asian Australian film company called Rumble Productions whose stated in interviews that BLT was one of the films that inspired him as a young man to start the company.
Even though he might not have made alot of money producing Asian American films, his films did inspire a lot of different people in various places across the world, and in the big scheme of things thats really priceless, and definately not retarded.
Keep up the good work!!
Love from Australia!!
Yellow is the new black. Keep on keepin’ on brothas.
Great post, Justin. We all appreciate what you’ve done for us so keep it up. Don’t listen to the haters!
I think it’s pretty incredible that you’ve been able to make any Asian American film at all, so kudos to you as you will always be known in cinematic history for breaking new ground. I’ve had a couple of projects come my way regarding the Japanese internment camps but it’s no surprise that the funding fell out on both. Soldier on!
Australia IN DA HOUSE!
so cool we got a hit from down under : )
@Justin – just watched your new episode of “Community” tonight – love that show!
@Mike – can we invite Justin to Facebook Mafia games so that he can see what real Asian American backstabbing looks like?
I usually post snarky/sarcastic/funny/unfunny comments but right now I want to say that Justin, you have been an inspiration to me and more ppl than you might ever know. You will likely never get to meet those folks, and they will never have a chance to tell you how their lives took different turns because of your work.
But, as the commentariat have mentioned, if that work can inspire young people to pursue a career in the arts (or follow whatever their particular dream is), that kind of stuff can’t be measured in dollars.
Ok, that was gay. I will now continue to write about boners.
So according to that producer, Asian Americans should continue to play the stereotyped roles that white Hollywood wants to pidgeon-hole us in? You know the Chinese restaurant waiter/gangster/tech nerd/exotic hooker roles that seem to be the only way to see us on screen. Because we can’t even see ourselves on screen when the stories are about us (21, The Last Airbender, etc). Screw that. I say more power and lots more money to Justin and those that push back.
It comes down to whether you have something to say, and balancing that against what you think you can afford. In the cases of most creative people, they aren’t in a position to “do what they love” full-time, so you do what you have to do to get the money/lifestyle you’re comfortable with, and spend the rest of the time (and money you made doing what you had to) doing what you want.
In Justin’s case, he doesn’t have to balance his personal projects against his soul-crushing day-job, but rather, his more mainstream (but still potentially personal) projects. This is a great position to be in, because if he has something to say, he can get around to it sooner or later and actually get it out there.
As for AA products in general, as I understand it, AAs do not form a significantly distinct market group, due to numbers as well as cultural inclination. There aren’t that many of us around, relatively, and those who are around generally follow white purchasing trends, so from a business stand-point, spending money marketing to us, or designing products for us, is almost always a money-losing proposition. The only way to get around this problem is to create something with AA-flavor but with much wider appeal, i.e. Harold and Kumar. More “exclusive” stories that really get into our own hopes, fears, narratives, etc. would, I think, have to have tightly-controlled costs for the faintest hope of breaking even or making money.
Nice replies all. Stealth, your last ‘graph says a lot. Paris, Tyler Perry does great stuff for his peeps, but AAs and APIs are diverse as well, let’s get specific: Samoans and Tongans. Island peeps, seemingly similar but blood enemies, and forever it seems.
I grew up with Cantonese speakers. They always told how southern Chinese were the N’s of China. Didn’t understand, now I do. I played a Cambodian twice last year, as foreign to me as a Sicilian. I speak more Spanish than Japanese.
I’m not taking anyone to task, don’t get me wrong please, not grinding any axe either — just putting on the screen some thoughts: How is my particular story relevant to the Korean community, young or old? The Vietnamese, an Asian 5th generation kid from Oahu; a haole dude, also 5th gen Hawaii, and also 1/6 Okinawan? Last one’s hyperbole, but we could prob find one in a casting search.
My bro’s and sis’s Big Chill generation was inspired by Flower Drum Song, odd as that may sound today’s hip. It was a big flick and it was groundbreaking. And we JAs, Chinese and Filipino kids, the three representative API groups in post-war America, realted because most of us lived in tight communities. Flew had fled to the ‘burbs; we went to specific schools, we hung together, most of our folks were immigrants and working in restaurants, shops, on farms, were gardeners or laundrymen. We dated within our groups.
So the story of that film meant something to us — besides the fact that dang, those are our faces up there, big time, big screen, and emoting to boot.
Re Better, just occurred to me how suburban and not urban, inner city it was. Good flick and I hope there are more.
Glad J’s post has generated a discussion.
typing too fast: related, few, etc.
This is a great post, and an example about how personal choices and “causes” you support generally don’t yield immediate “profit”. But we have close to 15 million Asian-Americans in this country, many of which posess the means, and the desire to see more Asian American media. Until recently, many didn’t even have access to this world of Asian media–or even knowledge of its existence.
Much of this niche media world relies on word of mouth, and more grassroots campaigns to spread the word, so continuing to foster relationships with college campus groups, and with figures across the country is critical.
That said, I fail to see why “Asian American” media needs to also cater specifically to yellow folk in this country. We have stories that can be universal to all, maybe producers and directors need to think more about how our stories can be told in a way that helps reach a broader market/audience beyond the demographic of Asian-Americans that also enjoy indie flicks. Some might call that selling out; I call it expanding influence.
In any case, great post Justin, keep inspiring–the green might not be rolling in by the truckloads, but you’re laying the groundwork. I expect the next decade to be a major turning point where Asian American media turns from being “retarded/visionary” to becoming more “universal/mainstream”.
ill just say that “better luck tomorrow” and “finishing the game” are two of the most intriguing movies I’ve ever seen. I hope that the criticism you face only motivates you further, for the advancement of Asian American movies into mainstream cinema i look at you as the “chosen one”.
My fellow filmmaking brethren (of all colors, sizes, odors and creeds), since no one will give us the money to get our goddamned films made (unless you got a baller ass uncle) I declare we rise up and join the ranks of the shameless, the desperate, the obsessed: The Herzog School of the Hard Knocks.
http://www.roguefilmschool.com/
Even if we don’t get a film made out of this badass experience on par with words such as “battle axes” and “caveman deathmatch” and “bear,” we’ll emerge with a few more pubes on our nutsacks (pardon the language; there was no other way to say it).
And isn’t that what filmmaking is essentially all about? Growing more nut hairs, aka, “leveling up”?
I have spoken.
The floor is open for discussion (though I’m highly confident I just dropped the be-all-end-all megabomb of pure logic and uncut reasoning, what up).
I totally agree with you Justin. I also realize that no matter what film I write, I will always be pigeonholed as an “Asian American” filmmaker.
But I never set out to be a label. I simply tell the stories I want to tell and most of those stories would have a cast of Asian Americans. I grew up in Hawaii and white people were the minority, so it’s simply a part of what I want to write about.
he does kinda have a point about the math thing. maybe we can find some equation where for every 2 kids we have, the 3rd kid has to be in media arts. or each bag of rice, a dollar is donated to the arts. we’ll all be rich, laughing all the way to the bank.
anyhoo, i just thought it was funny how he’s stereotyping asian americans as good at math. so does that mean if you’re bad at math, you are breaking stereotypes? if so, i’m really good at breaking stereotypes
Of all the whacked things producers do and say — and bless them because it’s a job I’ll always avoid — they might speak some truth straight to your face. This is needed.
Not saying Producer Above is accurate, but what he said — wait un minuto aqui, was it a woman? — may be more truth than smoke.
i’m a painting, painter in the artistic sense. If I painted with the goal to make money I would have quit a long time ago. You make art because you want to, for yourself most of all.
Now I’m make films, I make films for myself first. I treat them like paintings, I do it, hang it on the wall, and if it sells great, if not, i don’t care…geesh, go digital, film on an EX1 or 7d. It’s freaken cheap these days.
Funk, got your point. Unfortunately making films and painting are very different economically. I just did a no budget film on digital cam. No one got paid and I edited on my computer. Without going out to film it cost me 36k. It didn’t get into Sundance and now I’m in debt. I’ll hang it on my wall because that’s all I can do and have to find a job to pay it off.
I dunno, I spent in the ballpark of 36k on my art (paintings) in the last 4 years without seeing much of a return. I love what I’ve ceated and don’t regret it one bit. You see, day jobs are a good thing.
Since you brought up Vegas. I’m going to try an analogy. It’s like a pit boss asking a gambler not to play roulette. The odds are horrible. Everyone knows it. There’s really no system to win consistently but you still play. Are you doing for all the other roulette players out there? Probably not but I think you just want to beat the house again…and roulette’s your game.
funk thats what the blog was sayin. even though he knows hes going to lose money hes going to keep doing it.
[...] Am I “Retarded” for Making Asian-American Films? by Justin Lin of You Offend Me You Offend My Family In this post, Asian-American director Justin Lin (Better Luck Tomorrow, Fast & Furious) talks about the business viability of Asian American cinema, or rather lack thereof. He loses money with each Asian-American film he makes, but he is still somehow driven to make those films and tell those stories. [...]
HALLELUYA, J!
[...] Article: Am I ‘retarded’ For Making Asian American Films? [...]
you’re not losing money because you make asian-american movies, you’re losing money because you make bad movies.
[...] you think it’s difficult being an Asian American director today trying to make Asian American-themed projects, imagine what it must have been like 94 years [...]
Who knows! 20-30 years down the line, Justin Lin is more than likely to be remembered as one of the greatest AA directors of all time. His movies will be studied by all film students all over the world. But right now, there are only BLT, FTG, and what else? We definitely need more AA stories out there. I’d like to see more AA actors in AA movies.
If all you’re concerned about is the money factor, then maybe you’re a glutton for punishment, uphill battles, and obstacles. But “retarded,” no. We all want to make money doing what we love, but that part aside, everything we do has a ripple effect. Since your movies, especially BLT, have inspired other AAs to pursue their dreams, I’d say that’s good enough reason to continue making AA movies. The ripple effect is firing up a whole new generation that will get involved, represent in their own ways, and continue the wave of positive change far into the future. Who knows? Maybe there will come a day in our lifetime when an AA film turns a profit of blockbuster proportions. Until then, I still appreciate seeing my own up on the big screen no matter how indie it comes across. It provides a little balance to the status quo of stereotypical roles and blatant invisibility (21, Airbender) that still exist even today.
the funny thing to me is that you actually think it’s okay to use the word retarded. you worry about offending AA’s but don’t give a crap about the disabled. You can’t only stand up for one group being offended. shameful
its also funny you didn’t see that his use of quotes. how else was he going to make a point when that’s what the producer said. it obvious in this case he was referring to the quote rather than a literal definition of the word. and by the way, he’s not worried about offending aa’s. have you seen his film or hear the outcry from a lot of the aa’s when his film came out?
Hats off to Mr. Lin for all his cinematic achievements. I’m a big fan and hope others will take the time to explore his film repertoire.
My take on the word etymology: “retarded” = “major studio exec vision challenged”
Understandably, it will may take some time for the mainstream to appreciate his AA works – due to their unfamiliarity of the characters types and the likelihood they are not aware of their existence. However, for a movie to succeed, financially or otherwise, the audience merely needs to sympathize, understand or be entertained by the story. (or on occasion to be subjected to an overwhelming amount of marketing)
Perhaps the subtle approach (which is happening now) is the most effective. Integrate the AA roles into larger productions, sort of a like a Trojan horse, then expand on the complexity of the characters once you’re inside. The stereotypical AA roles are not necessarily a negative but a reflection of the what most people can currently relate to. Whether it be marital artists, restaurant cooks, massage girls or homosexuals – talented people such as Christopher Doyle, Wong Kar Wai, Ang Lee and Quentin Tarantino to name a few, have managed to transform the simplest of traditional subject matters into vivid and surreal images on film. Once you’ve opened the doors of familiarity then you can give the viewers a chance to explore the similarities all human beings share – regardless of race, color or culture.
With world financial disparity on the rise, films have the unique ability to portray the commonalities of Asians and Westerners; hopefully to influence things positively in the best interest of world peace, understanding and the betterment of mankind.
Anyhow, the true counterculture, non-conformist cinematic buff revels in the ideology of remaining a minority fan to an underdog genre. If Better Luck Tomorrow ticket sales would’ve reached those of Avatar, then you’re only social play would be to say… “I was watching obscure Justin Lin flicks before he got popular.”
Such is the irony of life. Savor the moment and respect of being one of the few brave souls to take the risk for the sake of your vision.
Oh… and BTW Justin. I need you to read my script please.
[...] a thankless, money-losing and all-around impossible endeavor (see previous posts on this topic here and here). I’m talking about the Cherry Skys and the Mynette Louies and all the other good folk [...]
Asian naysayers bug me….bug me like bed bugs that just won’t die.
Don’t they realize that every single benefit we have as americans was earned through struggle? If our predecessors had the “it’s a pointless fight” mentality, where would we be today? Half of us would get “shipped back” an the other half would be servants (since we no longer need anyone to build the transcontinental railroad). And NONE of us would get to go to university.
Look, women weren’t “given” the right to vote. A small # of women fought for the right…and the rest benefited from their efforts.
U keep up the good work and ignore the naysayers. I pity the naysayers…I pity them for their lack of self-respect. Asian-americans get no respect in hollywood because asian-americans act like they don’t deserve respect.
4th of july ppl. if our forefathers thought it was pointless to fight, we’d all still be under britain’s thumb.